M&M 176 versus 173

[Abaddon]

I recently purchased a bullet and it appears to be a 173. The seller insists it is a 176 variant. How can I tell the difference? Would it be ok to put a pic up?

[PCGeorge]

First... it's okay to post photos of the bullet in question. Just make sure the photos are not too large (filesize), because this forum has a limit on photo-size.

Second... good clear well-focused closup photos are the only way we can see what we need to see in order to answer your question.

Regards,
Pete [P.C. George]

[Abaddon]

Here are the pictures. I tried to get two good side shots and a base shot. I also have them aligned next to the 173 in the M&M book and next to the 176. The seller called it a 176v but I don't see it. Maybe someone can enlighten me as to why it is a 176v (if it is). The seller copped a bit of an attitude when I asked him to explain to me why it wasn't a 173. Thanks!

[Abaddon]

Well it'll only let me post 4 pic links per post so here it is next to the 176:

[PCGeorge]

Thank you for providing the clear well-focused focus I requested. They enable me to give you the info you want.

I should have also asked you to provide precise meaurement of the minie's diameter ...which is extremely necessary for correct identification. (That is why all the civil war bullet refence-books give the projectile's precise diameter, in addition to the caliber of the firearm it was intended to be used in.)

M&M176 is what bullet collectors call a One-Groove Gardner. Because it is quite rare in comparison to the quantity of "typical" Gardner minies, its dollar-value is 10 times higher. Serious bullet Collectors are very dismayed that some bullet sellers are claiming that ANY Gardner which kinda-sorta resembles M&M176 is a high-value "variant" of M&M176. ("Variant" is what the letter v at the end of M&M176v means.)

A "typical" Gardner minie has two flat-bottomed grooves which are separated by a smooth band that is the same diameter as the bullet. The most important distinguishing characteristic of the M&M176 minie is the fact that the two grooves DISTINCTLY merge into a single "valley," ALL THE WAY AROUND THE BULLET.

Your photos show that this minie is absolutely definitely NOT a M&M176 -- nor is it a M&M176v...for two reasons.
1- The photos show that the minie's two grooves crowd together at only one portion of the minie's circumference -- the grooves are clearly quite separate from each other around the rest of the minie's body.
2- Both the shape of the minie's nose AND the length of its smooth-sided base area are significantly different from those areas of M&M176. Therefore, "at best" it could be called a variant of some other .577 or .58-caliber Gardner (possibly the M&M175 which you suggested).

To serious collectors and students of civil war bullets, the claim that this minie is a variant of M&M176 is "wishful thinking." That opinion is amplified by your report that "The seller copped a bit of an attitude when I asked him to explain to me why it wasn't a 173."

To my eye, this minie has a fired look to it. If possible, please provide the precise diameter measurement of the minie. For clarification: "Precise" means taken with calipers (like the minies in the book are), which produces a measurement in thousandths-of-an-inch, such as .571-inch.

Regards,
Pete [P.C. George]

[Abaddon]

Originally Posted by PCGeorge

Thank you for providing the clear well-focused focus I requested. They enable me to give you the info you want.

I should have also asked you to provide precise meaurement of the minie's diameter ...which is extremely necessary for correct identification. (That is why all the civil war bullet refence-books give the projectile's precise diameter, in addition to the caliber of the firearm it was intended to be used in.)

M&M176 is what bullet collectors call a One-Groove Gardner. Because it is quite rare in comparison to the quantity of "typical" Gardner minies, its dollar-value is 10 times higher. Serious bullet Collectors are very dismayed that some bullet sellers are claiming that ANY Gardner which kinda-sorta resembles M&M176 is a high-value "variant" of M&M176. ("Variant" is what the letter v at the end of M&M176v means.)

A "typical" Gardner minie has two flat-bottomed grooves which are separated by a smooth band that is the same diameter as the bullet. The most important distinguishing characteristic of the M&M176 minie is the fact that the two grooves DISTINCTLY merge into a single "valley," ALL THE WAY AROUND THE BULLET.

Your photos show that this minie is absolutely definitely NOT a M&M176 -- nor is it a M&M176v...for two reasons.
1- The photos show that the minie's two grooves crowd together at only one portion of the minie's circumference -- the grooves are clearly quite separate from each other around the rest of the minie's body.
2- Both the shape of the minie's nose AND the length of its smooth-sided base area are significantly different from those areas of M&M176. Therefore, "at best" it could be called a variant of some other .577 or .58-caliber Gardner (possibly the M&M175 which you suggested).

To serious collectors and students of civil war bullets, the claim that this minie is a variant of M&M176 is "wishful thinking." That opinion is amplified by your report that "The seller copped a bit of an attitude when I asked him to explain to me why it wasn't a 173."

To my eye, this minie has a fired look to it. If possible, please provide the precise diameter measurement of the minie. For clarification: "Precise" means taken with calipers (like the minies in the book are), which produces a measurement in thousandths-of-an-inch, such as .571-inch.

Regards,
Pete [P.C. George]

I wondered as much. What's the best way to size a bullet? I've seen pictures of a gauge that people use and I'd like to pick one up (if that's the best way). Thanks for the help!

[Jack]

You can get good dial calipers relatively cheaply (usually under 30$) at reloading supply places (Midway, Natchez, Midsouth) and large tool supply houses (Harbor Freight,etc).
These tools have an easy to read dial that will read to 4 places, i.e. .5876
Often the dial calipers are made of plastic, but they hold up well for years. That should be all you need for measuring bullet diameters.