1758 Seven Years War Hand Grenades

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Battlefield 1866

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Here are a couple "hand Grenades" found on the 1758 Seven Years War battlefield of Zorndorf, which is in Poland.

They measure about 2 1/2 inches in diameter. These could have also been used in the Flintlock "Grenade" Musket. Looks like a Flintlock musket except has a very short and large caliber barrel. Some of the barrels were made of brass.

Some of these were found with the wooden fuse plug intact.

Brad
 
Those are some awesome finds. I was wondering if any of you guys had ever found a grenade in a Civil War site? I've seen hand grenades found in War of 1812 sites in Maryland, but did troops use them in the Civil War?

Just wondering,
Kieran
 
Kieran:

Indeed they did; both the Federals and Confederates used several different types, and they are found on American (must specify American, as we now have a few great people on our forum from Europe) Civil War sites. Of course, in a pinch, a 6-pounder shell could be used for this purpose—made one nasty hand-grenade.
 
Kieran:

Thought this would be interesting to you, and any others interested in your question: From, "eHistory's Civil War Newsletter - Issue 06/19/2002," by Alethea Sayers, found at http://www.ehistory.com/uscw/features/a ... ationId=62

"During the Civil War, two kinds of hand grenades were made, but they saw little use in combat. One of them, patented in August 1861, carried a percussion cap and an activating 'plunger' that was not inserted until it was about to be thrown. Rated as effective at a distance of about twenty-six yards, this explosive piece was known by the name of its inventor, Ketchum.

"A more sophisticated grenade, 'the Excelsior,' was developed in 1862 by W. W. Hanes. Its cast-iron shell held fourteen nipples, to each of which a percussion cap was attached before it was thrown. Hanes insisted, correctly, that at least one cap was sure to trigger an explosion. In practice, men trying to use his device often hit a cap accidentally and had a hand or arm blown off. As a result, it seems never to have been used in battle.

"Soldiers who may or may not have heard of the Ketchum grenade or the Excelsior sometimes improvised similar weapons. At Vicksburg, Confederates in Louisiana units stuck short, lighted fuses into 6 and 12-pounder shells, then rolled them into ranks of Union sappers.
One demonstration of this weapon was enough to make believers of opponents. Confederate Captain John M. Hickey said that when one of the city's forts was stormed, 'the air was made black with hand grenades which were thrown at us by every Federal soldier who got inside the works.' Similar explosive devices were made on the spot by Federals at Knoxville.

"Describing some of the action near Chattanooga, Union Colonel P. C. Hayes said an assault by troops under Confederate Lieutenant General James Longstreet reached a deep ditch dug by Federals. Confederates, he said, jumped into the ditch in order to raise scaling ladders. According to him, 'This action was fatal to them. Our men, being unable to reach them with their heavy guns, lit the fuse of the shells, which they threw by hand into the ditch, where they exploded, slaughtering the helpless occupants by the wholesale.'

"Records do not indicate the number of engagements in which improvised explosives were rolled or thrown against foes. Nevertheless, they were employed frequently enough to show that although technology to produce suitable hand grenades did not yet exist, the concept behind these weapons was fully developed by men in both gray and blue."

You might also see the section on hand grenades at:
http://kms.kapalama.ksbe.edu/projects/2 ... ntist.html
 
as a die hard collector of hand grenades (of all things) I wanted to mention that reproductions of the ACW examples are being made, and I would suspect at some point someone will age an example and try and pass it as dug.

I've gotten some supposedly dug german items from Russia which appear to be reproductions etched by acid or something to look corroded.
 
Jgawne,

I can assure you 110% that these grenades are authentic!!!!!! Having dug and collected CW relics in the 70's and 80's I guess I can relate to your statement.

The problem I have noticed with the CW collecting communities is that they think they put the "R" in Relics. Everything they know about weapons, buttons, and should I say ammunition, is based on what was being used in the CW. Anything that they have not seen before is suspect of being "Fake".

Thus I hoped my posts would be helpful to CW collectors so everyone can see that there really were many other wars and battles fought throughout the world than just the American Civil War. And that to better understand US CW relics a little better it would be a good idea to see what was being used in the rest of the world before, during and after the CW.

But, as I am finding out, you cannot get the CW collecting community out of thier trenches - so to speak. So, I think that my posts are a waste of my time and the CW collecting communities time.

Too bad, bacause there are a lot of really nice relics here in Europe on more battlefields than I could ever visit in two lifetimes. And, they are not all fake!

Brad
 
Pre War Weapons and Ammunition

Brad,

I have to disagree with you here. While some members of the ACW collecting community do in fact act like ACW relics are the only relics most of us fully understand that everything that was used here can trace its roots back to earlier Euro wars and weapons. The major concern of the ACW bullet collecting community is the introduction of European and Canadian bullets into the local market. These bullets are usually patterns that "may have been used" in the ACW, like the low numbered enfields so frequently discussed on this forum. Their introduction into the market skew the number of recovered examples, causing confusion and, in many cases, result in mis-information concerning the number of patterns used and where they were used.

As a serious student of the development of firearms and ammunition I have always enjoyed reading your posts (and those of our other European members) and value the information. I have not posted in reply simply because my studies have been centered around ACW items and I simply have nothing to contribute to the discussions that you have tried to initiate. Instead, I have learned quite a bit from your (and the other European members') posts about the bullet patterns that pre-dated, and resulted in, what we are used to.

Personally, I hope that you will continue to contribute.

TomH
 
TomH,

Thanks for your reply. I also collect US CW relics, mainly bullets, and I also found the same mis-information when I started getting back into this a few years ago. Prior to that I have been out of the CW relic scene since about 1982. I found it interesting that since then all of these "new" bullet types began to pop up. Was really interesting when I noticed some of these bullets were bullets that I probably dug here in Europe!

So, thus why I have been trying to get something going on here to give first hand - "no bull*@&#" information on what was going on in Europe. Purpose of course to help fellow CW collectors avoid buying something they believe is from the CW and in reality is a European dug relic. And second to perhaps get some interest going since European battlefield detecting is about where CW was in the 70's. There are not that many people doing this sort of thing over here and those that do are not united in a collecting community. So, there is mis-information on this side of the Atlantic too.

Collecting European relics is very interesting and rewarding and maybe some of this will get some of those dusty relics out of the closet, so to speak.

However, information has the most value...and if my posts are interesting to a few I guess I should continue. I do have a small advantage over some of the European contributors being that I used to detect and collect CW and understand that side of the house. I tell you, when I first started getting into the European relics I based everything on the CW and started to find that things did not make sense. Now I had to go and forget everything I learned and start over. After learning about the European developments and bullet types, etc. I think I now have a better understanding and appreciation for CW relics (bullets and artillery ammunition).

The problem with this is that it disagrees with a lot of the published information available to CW collectors. So, hopefully one day I can get my European bullet project complete and available in the US for those who are interested.

Anyway, Euro relics are fascinating and I hope of interest to the forum. I have 100's of cool pictures etc.

Brad
 
Brad
I too have not replied to your previous posts but I assure you I have read and enjoyed them all. I simply felt I had nothing to contribute because of a lack of specific knowledge. I'm sure there are others that have done the same. I think your insight into ACW collecting adds a valuable asset to your very informative posts. When I saw your post on the 1813 "Battle of the Nations" at Leipzig in Germany I thought, "Man I'd really like to have a shell fragment from a Napoleonic battle!". But that's just not the sort of thing you ordinarily post. So, you do have some ACW collectors thinking of other battle relics. As has been said, I also hope you will continue to post to this forum.

Regards,
Ernie
 
I agree with jgawne. I am totally jealous!!!! :bawl Please keep posting Battlefield. As an avid fan of anything historical and historic military actions I thou roughly enjoy your posts. Relics aside, I like studying military tactics and how technology, throughout the history of weapons, has changed those tactics. Keep on Digging!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Keep looking then, I will put a post or two dealing with all of the wars/battlefields I have done some detecting or have relics from.

And, thanks for the feedback, that lets me know the information is of interest, also ask any questions. That will keep me on my toes digging out the answers.

I guess a little feedback on what is of greatest interest would be helpful. For example medieval warfare, Napoleonic, 19th century, artillery related, bullet related, buttons and so on. Although I am not a big fan of WW I and WW II I do encounter that sort of thing quit often and can add posts about it too.

I am just an all round military history buff and like it all, so it is hard to decide what subject to talk about!

Brad
 
Some of those 2.5" iron ball grenades do end up getting passed off over here as American Civil War for big bucks. There is one shown on page 500 of Dickey & George (1993 edition) and so folks are eager to get one of them. Looks like the fuse hole is smaller on yours.

As for what is of interest, for me personally it would be European found relics which are close to our own Civil War and thus shed light on the evolution of guns and projectiles used in the ACW (both small and large). Also, WWII finds are super cool, more for the recency of the conflict than anything else.

Mike
 
I would consider any US found 2.5 inch grenade an extreme rarity! So, thus extreme caution is in order when considering purchasing one.

In fact, they are somewhat of a rarity here as well, they are not found in "heaps". I have been detecting here for about 16 years and have NEVER found one. Hopefully one day I do. All that I have in my collection, I bought. But.......there are places where they are a common find, either they are two far away, or I have not had the opportunity to go there yet, or, just simply do not know the exact find location. I did detect one area in Italy where I found more grenade fragments than I could carry, also found a French Revolution site here in Germany that had many grenade fragments. Most come from siege locations, a lot of which are a ruin or fortification of some sort and considered a historical or cultural site. Therefore, metal detecting is not allowed. So, ....you know the rest of the story.

Anyway, CW grenades....I would be VERY cautious, same with Rev. War grenades. As far as size, fuse hole diameter etc. I have several and have had many others and there are no real standards there. Each is different in it's own way except those found together in a particular locations.

More on Medieval grenades later.....

Brad
 
In a way...

we in the states have it easy. I sometimes buy odd lots of 'junk' from diggers in Europe just to look at the weird stuff. In the US you can date it from a pretty recent time, but in Europe it could be many different time periods.

Is it 1850? is it Celtic, roman, or what?

One thing I find interesting is that a few years ago in my heavy Roman Phase I was buying a lot of Roman relics. I recently started looking at them again and lo and behold suddenly there are lots of 'iron' fire starters for sale that I had never seen being sold a few years back.

Odd how a very ferrous item that one does not see, suddenly turns up in great quantity.
 
Well, I know what you mean. As far as the fire starters go, I do find them fairly often here. By no means every time I go out, but I guess I have found about 50 or so over the last 16 years.

Most of this dug iron you see on ebay or in the collectors market is from eastern Europe. For the most part I do not doubt the authenticity since it should be pretty hard to create the same "iron patina - oxidation" as the stuff you did.

I will take a picture later of a huge pile of arrowheads, in my days detecting I have never found that many. So, you might ask...how is that.

In eastern Europe there are many unemployed......if you want to use the word "Mafia" I guess that will explain it. Anyway, they put them to work with detectors. Finds are eventually consolidated and seperated, quality stuff finding its way to auctions like Sotheby's etc. Arrowheads, spurs, flint strikers etc going other directions. When I buy stuff here "fresh" from the Bulgarians etc. it is always in groups by type. For example, lot of spurs - 45 pieces, all different time periods, big bag of misc. not so good brooches, all different time periods, arrowheads - same deal - keys....once again, flint strikers...again, same deal.

There are fakes out there, but if you know old iron, as soon as you get to cleaning it - it is obvious something is wrong. Also glued together and fixed up crap. I have bought a big group of arrows or spurs and find that 2 or 3 are "stuck together".....that happens.

Also, lots of fakes in the relics made from bronze, once again, after digging lots of it yourself, you eventually get that "gut" feeling when something is not right. 2000 year old bronze - and iron, just has a look and feel that cannot be re-created. Remember, different ground conditions effect this as well, some ground - "good ground" will produce 200 year old iron that is only lightly coated with rust. But.....it is still iron, not steel or modern made stuff. I cannot fully explain unless I can put some pieces in your hand, but (you know the difference).

So, just because you see groups of stuff, I would not suspect it as being "fake" there guys assemble=e the stuff from many - many diggers and sell it accordingly. Whereas in western Europe yo have only "hobby" detectorists and most of what they find you will never see. As I mentioned earlier, there is no united group of collectors, only local groups, who half the time do not fully understand everything they find.

Brad
 
ACW Hand Grenade Value?

Jgawne -

What is the fair market value of a genuine ACW 2 1/2" spherical hand grenade? I have searched the various dealer sites and cannot find any that are listed.

Much Appreciated.

Selma Hunter
 
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