Green Rifle/Carbine?

O

ohiochaplain

Established Users
While looking for another CW bullet to purchase, I came across one labeled for a "Green Rifle." Can anyone supply me with information about this weapon, as I have never heard of it. Thanks.
 
I understand that the long skinny Enfield looking bullet that most often gets called a Green was not (definitively?) used in the carbine/rifle of that name. Maybe I am wrong, as I am not a gun guy, but this is what I remember hearing.

Still it is a distinctive bullet type and I like it for what it is. I think it is MM220 in the bullet book. Am I right?
 
Dennis,

If you have a copy of Round Ball to Rimfire Vol. 2, take a look at pages 124-132. There are patent drawings and line drawings of the Greene rifle and cartridge. Also you will find photographs of the cartridge and bullet used in this rifle, and looks like a short Enfield.

TerryW
 
Greene

Folks,

The true Greene rifle/carbine bullet is .54 cal, flat based and has a very round nose. Frequently .54 cal enfields are being sold as Greenes, but according to Dean Thomas, the distinguishing factor is the flat base. Again, because it is a breechloading system, the bullet diameter is larger than the caliber of the intended weapon.

The scan is a true Greene with a casting flaw in the base.

Hope this helps,
TomH
 
Thanks everyone for your replies. A follow-up question to TomH: All the bullets I seen advertised as "Green" are listed as M&M #220 or #222 or T&T #143a or #143b, which are shown as not being flat based. Therefore, they must not be true Green"s. What is the M&M or T&T number for the true flat based "Green rifle" bullet. Thanks.
 
Is a TT 86 a "Greene Carbine" as well. When I purchased mine, I was told that it was by the dealer, but since then all I have found out is that no one is really sure what it is, besides that it was a Confederate pattern used in the Trans-Mississippi area, and that it was used in a breechloader. If anyone has more information on this bullet, please let me know.

Later,

Kieran
 
Kieran:

You should try to get ahold of Chris Bullington (ETNLEAD on eBay) to find out about TT86. Apparently there is some controversy about its legitimacy.

Sorry, thats all I know.

Mike
 
Greene

Kieran,

The TT86 is for a .52 cal breechloader, the Greene was .54 cal so I do not believe that the TT86 is a greene. Again, breechloader bullets have to be larger than the stated caliber of the weapon to accieve a gas seal and destroy windage.

ohiochaplain,

Those bullets all have cone cavities and were therefore intended for use in muzzle loaders. The Greene is TT93.

TomH
 
Greene

Isleofwight,

Not by a long shot. Enfields have expansion cavities, either conical or plug and are smaller caliber than the bore since they were intended for muzzleloaders. The greene is a solid base and was only made in .54 cal (dia .542 or slightly larger) and used a felt washer at the base of the ball. Even though the cartridge is similar in design to the british cartridge (ball at bottom of cartridge facing up, powder above ball at nose) it was a unique weapon and bullet with a very bizarre loading system.

Later,
TomH
 
To share: I had often wondered what weapon(s) T&T 93, though designed for the Greene Carbine, had actually been used in during the American CW. If fired from an actual Greene Carbine, it should evidence 3x3 rifling (per M&M. p. 168). According to "Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms . . .," (8th Ed., pp. 510-511) some .54 Greene Carbines produced by the Massachusetts Arms Co. made it into the hands of some Federals (e.g. 6th Ohio Cavalry). Flayderman's also writes, "Legend has it that a number of the British Type Greenes were repurchased by the U.S. during the Civil War, but there is no substantive evidence of this." In any case, a few years ago I purchased a fired T&T 93 (dug in the Shenandoah Valley, VA) that has 5x5 rifling marks. The possible suspects (with 5x5): .54 Starr, .54 Burnside, .54 Ballard, or a .52 (.54 per M&M) Terry (Calisher & Terry) Carbine English breech-loader. It has been interesting to wonder which fired this bullet. If I had to place a bet, I would probably put my money on the Starr (and I think I would bet against the Burnside).
 
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