.38 CW handguns?, and Lands/Grooves.

D

Dr. Beach

Established Users
Hello All:

A couple of questions:

First, in researching another matter (see my posts under “Pistol Bullet ID”) I had a realization that I’m curious about: there were .36 and .41 caliber CW handguns, but an absence of .38 caliber handguns in the Civil War. If I am right about that, I wonder why that was so. Are .38 caliber handguns a post-CW invention (could it be as simple as the fact that a .36 would kill just as well as a .38 . . . and conserve lead?)?

Second, while I’m still grappling with the idea of a .41 diameter bullet being used in a .36 revolver (lead being malleable, and all)—ha!--is there an up to date concise listing, somewhere, of the various lands and grooves patterns of CW rifles and handguns? Of course there is the listing in M&M, and I use the Edwards book on CW Guns, and sometimes Flayderman’s—but is there a better source?
 
Book

Horace:

Try to obtain American Longarms by H. Michael Madaus. The book is out of print so I would look for one at abebooks.com or Amazon.com it will help with rifles. Another good source is American Military Equipage by Frederick P. Todd also out of print. It is good for common rifles and pistols and especially good on foreign weapons. You can view the books before buying by using the Interlibrary loan department of your local library.

Nemo
 
Thanks Nemo! I'm a book lover, so I will definitely look into those two references you suggest. Say, for example, I have a solid base .54 bullet that evidences five land and groove marks--I would want to be able to create a short-list of possible guns that fired it. When I had this actual case in the past, M&M seemed to point to a Perry carbine--but I'm not sure how acurate M&M is on their list of rifling patterns (and if not in Flayderman or Edwards, I usually turn to the Internet). So it will be good to check out these two works you mention . . . and with a little digging (wish it could be actual digging, but out here in CA no CW sites--hmm . . . well, there was the Benicia Arsenal) I might also learn why there was a lack of .38 weapons in the CW.
 
Sirname

Would you be related to the California or the Arkansas Beachs? My friend told me the California klan broke from the Arkansas group just about the time of the end of the CW.
 
Nemo:

You've touched on my other favorite topic--genealogy. I'll try not to bore you with too much, but here goes: Most Beaches in America are related in one way or another (some exceptions--example, the German family that now spells its name "Beach")--most are descendants of one of three alleged English brothers, Richard, John (my immigrant ancestor), or Thomas who came over in the 1630s-40s. Not sure about the Arkansas or California Beaches (though I do/did have relatives in both states). My g-g-grandfather Dr. David Beach went to Texas from Illinois in 1871. My family is still in Texas--I came to California in 1991. As far as Civil War ancestors, I have three known CS soldiers on my mother's side and one Union soldier on my paternal grandmother's side. Ah, but I have digressed to another interesting topic . . . .
 
Thanks again Nemo for the references to American Longarms by Madaus, and American Military Equipage by Todd. I was able to obtain both at a good price (which included all three volumes of American Military Equipage). It is sad that Mr. Todd evidently died before he could complete volume 3 (equipage broken down state by state)—what a great resource that would have been!—but what he managed to record is extensive. As you suggested, both works are indeed excellent sources for determining rifling patterns.
 
Horace:

Glad you have enjoyed the recommended books to help your research. Wish I would have saved my money to buy an original edition of Volume 2 of American Equipage that has the weapons broken do by state forces. I purchased a later edition in which the information is lacking. Drop a line at the forum if you ever need any help with lands and grooves. Have a very Merry Christmas.

Nemo
 
Merry Christmas to you and yours--and to All:

Actually, looks like you might not have missed too much in the way of breakdowns by state. Examining the three volumes I obtained, Todd’s first volume, dated 1974, is devoted to the U.S. Army--which he continues into his second volume, dated 1977 (the second half of which covers the C.S. Army). It is in his third volume (1978) where, after discussing the U.S. Navy and U.S. Marine Corps, he begins to go state by state--but unfortunately ending with Connecticut. It is my understanding (per the military book dealer) that Todd didn’t live long enough to complete his masterwork by expounding on each individual state--a sad loss to the CW research community.
 
Clarification on Todd book

For all of you who enjoy the books and research as much as the bullet collecting, as I do, I offer the following clarification on Todd (I finally figured this out with the help of Nemo [Dave] through private e-mail correspondence): Originally, there was to have been six volumes created, and three were first published in 1974. Then with Col. Todd's death in 1977, the final three volumes were not able to be completed and published (and he never completed his volume three on “State Forces”—just an incomplete volume three). So, the only three volumes extant were republished in the late 70s. Then in 1980, Scribner's combined the three into one large volume. Finally, in 1983, Todd's widow, Maria Todd privately printed two large volumes, the second of which was all the information on “State Forces” (her husband's info. plus several collaborators'). My original interest in Todd’s work was spurred by my desire for a comprehensive listing of rifling patterns and Nemo’s subsequent recommendation. Based on the excellence of Nemo’s referral, I trust that the following book suggested by Nemo will also be extremely useful:“FIREARMS FROM EUROPE: IMPORTED DURING THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR.” 2ND EDITION (revised and enlarged) by Whisker/Yantz/Hartzler, (Rochester, NY: Rowe Publications, 2002). Luckily, this work has proved MUCH easier to obtain than Todd’s 1983 “State Forces” (which I recently procured).
 
I believe if your measure a 38 cal. bullet you will find it measures .357 inches, (36 cal.). I believe the change in name came after the war and was a result of fixed cartridge cases having to be large enough for a 36 cal bullet to fit in and chambers having to be enlarged.
 
Thanks mikekj--I had almost forgotten my original question that started this thread. Your thought seems logical and has clarified the matter to my satisfaction--thanks!
 
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