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Made up names!
- Thread starter cwbullet
- Start date
spector551
Established Users
What made up names are you referring to?
Arkansas Hawg, Mississippi Cleaner, etc. It is very annoying for a dealer/digger to make up a name in order to make their bullet seem more valuable.
I personally try to name my bullets by describing them and what location they were found. The is no mention of the above bullets in any literature.
Chuck
I personally try to name my bullets by describing them and what location they were found. The is no mention of the above bullets in any literature.
Chuck
spector551
Established Users
Oh yes, I agree. All I do is put the calipers on them and tell what they look like and send a pic... let the pros give the names :smile:
The "made up" names are simply misrepresentation - in my opinion.
The "made up" names are simply misrepresentation - in my opinion.
tom stelma
Established Users
The "Arkansas Hog" has been identified as a French Mangeot McKee & Mason 608 & Thomas & Thomas 207 pg. 56. The Mississippi Cleaner I would like to see a picture of.
This in retrospect a lot of bullets are given names by the diggers due to the fact they do not know or have a good bullet guide with all the bullets which might be found listing them. My CD, McKee & Mason, the Thomas books Bullets & Cartridges, Ready Aim Fire and Round Ball to Rimfire do not and possibly never contain all the bullets used in the Civil War. I accept these names till the correct one comes to the surface. In McKee & Mason (a good book) has many mis-named bullets), my CD probably has some also, the Thomas books have mistakes also. We are human and errors will occur.
To Jack up the price of a bullet because one can not find it listed in a book is wrong. My 2 cents on a Sunday morning.
Tom Stelma
This in retrospect a lot of bullets are given names by the diggers due to the fact they do not know or have a good bullet guide with all the bullets which might be found listing them. My CD, McKee & Mason, the Thomas books Bullets & Cartridges, Ready Aim Fire and Round Ball to Rimfire do not and possibly never contain all the bullets used in the Civil War. I accept these names till the correct one comes to the surface. In McKee & Mason (a good book) has many mis-named bullets), my CD probably has some also, the Thomas books have mistakes also. We are human and errors will occur.
To Jack up the price of a bullet because one can not find it listed in a book is wrong. My 2 cents on a Sunday morning.
Tom Stelma
I agree with Tom on some aspects, but disagree also. Some use the names to jack up prices. I have heard them joking about it at shows.
I also agree that many names are given to the bullets in by where they are found and what troops use them. I understand this. A swiss/dimick or Italian carcano for example. Neither is a correct ID, but these were all honest mistakes based on history and reference books.
I am always suspicious of bullets with new names I have never heard of. An example is a bullet an auction about 2 months ago that the fellow referred to as a a "shiloh shreader". I am not all knowing, but there are some fishy names on eBay.
Chuck
I also agree that many names are given to the bullets in by where they are found and what troops use them. I understand this. A swiss/dimick or Italian carcano for example. Neither is a correct ID, but these were all honest mistakes based on history and reference books.
I am always suspicious of bullets with new names I have never heard of. An example is a bullet an auction about 2 months ago that the fellow referred to as a a "shiloh shreader". I am not all knowing, but there are some fishy names on eBay.
Chuck
This is a good topic which could turn into an ugly baby! Serious collectors, and I consider myself among that group, want to place correct identification on each bullet type. Unfortunately we are yet compiling knowledge. To me that is one of the great FUN aspects of the hobby.
Be it right or wrong, I coined the description of 'Bullseye' Enfield for a type of variant found in the Trans-MS area...the one with a couple of shallow grooves around the nose. This was done for the purpose of differentiating it from other 'Marshall, TX' Enfields. One of these days I hope we can place a proper name to this variant.
I also had a hand in naming the Loring Type 1 and Loring Type 2 Enfields which have been found in the camps of that general's troops in central MS. Once again, this is an expedient rather than an end. Local military preservationist took up the usage. It's just easier for us at this time to say we found six of the Loring Type 1's, than saying 'Today we found some of those, you know, the Enfields with kinda a real round nose, uh, sorta plug base but not really a PLUG base, uh, about .670 caliber, uh, you know the one's we dig around Canton' bullets.
I offer no appoligies for this. Mostly it's a local collector thing. More research and knowledge will reveal proper descriptive names in the future for the types we collect. As I said, nick-names are just an expediency for the time being. No harm intended.
Gary
Be it right or wrong, I coined the description of 'Bullseye' Enfield for a type of variant found in the Trans-MS area...the one with a couple of shallow grooves around the nose. This was done for the purpose of differentiating it from other 'Marshall, TX' Enfields. One of these days I hope we can place a proper name to this variant.
I also had a hand in naming the Loring Type 1 and Loring Type 2 Enfields which have been found in the camps of that general's troops in central MS. Once again, this is an expedient rather than an end. Local military preservationist took up the usage. It's just easier for us at this time to say we found six of the Loring Type 1's, than saying 'Today we found some of those, you know, the Enfields with kinda a real round nose, uh, sorta plug base but not really a PLUG base, uh, about .670 caliber, uh, you know the one's we dig around Canton' bullets.
I offer no appoligies for this. Mostly it's a local collector thing. More research and knowledge will reveal proper descriptive names in the future for the types we collect. As I said, nick-names are just an expediency for the time being. No harm intended.
Gary
Like I said, I don't have a problems with honest collectors and dealers doing this, but there are a sellect few who are not honest and I am sure we can name them, but lets leave names out of this. I have heard them joke and talk about their reserves - keeping bullets back tomake them seem more rare.
I do not have a problem with "bullseye" bullets for the design description or naming after the troops that camped near them. I have a problems with making up names thta have not meaning decriptively or otherwise.
For example, no ring prussian was a name i started to describe a prussian without rings. You have a .69 and a .54 caliber. I have heard them called baldies or smoothies and several other names. I don't have a problems with these names because they are descriptive.
Maybe I am hitting a nerve. This is not directed at any of the present company. I just have a few bad experiences with a select few dealers who tried to sell or sold me items that were not that rare, but had a nondescriptive creative name attached to them. I think most of us can agree that this is frustrating for new collectors.
Chuck
I do not have a problem with "bullseye" bullets for the design description or naming after the troops that camped near them. I have a problems with making up names thta have not meaning decriptively or otherwise.
For example, no ring prussian was a name i started to describe a prussian without rings. You have a .69 and a .54 caliber. I have heard them called baldies or smoothies and several other names. I don't have a problems with these names because they are descriptive.
Maybe I am hitting a nerve. This is not directed at any of the present company. I just have a few bad experiences with a select few dealers who tried to sell or sold me items that were not that rare, but had a nondescriptive creative name attached to them. I think most of us can agree that this is frustrating for new collectors.
Chuck
tom stelma
Established Users
it may not be nerves but something else. An honest name from a person that is reputable is OK but when you catch them unethical low people I would say something out loud so surrounding folks/buyers could hear. I have purchased bullets from a member n whose name I will not disclose nor mention from near Greenwood, Mississippi and the Enfield in question definately has a bull's eye type like mark on the nose and is very different from the MArshall Texas Enfield so named becasue so many were found there when the highway was put in.
I think the major problem with having the correct name is so many of the makers have decide to depart and leave so many differnt bullets for us to dicuss and put names on them till we come across the real name and then some people will not listen. I emailed one shop in the east about a certain bullet being sold as a Confederate revolver bullet when if in fact it was a 36-cakliber Eley northern made bullet and the price was outrageous just because a mistake had been made in the McKee & Mason #128. Money or the love of it will do you wrong every time.
Tom Stelma
I think the major problem with having the correct name is so many of the makers have decide to depart and leave so many differnt bullets for us to dicuss and put names on them till we come across the real name and then some people will not listen. I emailed one shop in the east about a certain bullet being sold as a Confederate revolver bullet when if in fact it was a 36-cakliber Eley northern made bullet and the price was outrageous just because a mistake had been made in the McKee & Mason #128. Money or the love of it will do you wrong every time.
Tom Stelma
Thanks Chuck,
As this website grows, and it most certainly will, the research done by its members will correctly identify many of the 'so named' bullet types. This is not a short term indeavor, of course. Goodness, there is so much research to be done. Many of us, myself included, do not have the knowledge to do that. Others are trained to do so. I am proud to be in their company. Is this NOT exciting.
Not being one of those who can/will do the archival searching does not mean that I/we are not willing to help out whenever possible. Some of us just ain't been around as much as some of y'all. But we're yet digging and collecting. We want to be vibrant members of this association.
Being good collectors we record what we find and where. This is important in many cases because it identifies what bullet types were used during the war (early, mid-war, late-war, etc.). Perhaps it would be a good idea to open a discussion listing as to what bullet types were used during the early, mid-war and late-war periods. Just a thought.
It's good to have you back,
Gary
As this website grows, and it most certainly will, the research done by its members will correctly identify many of the 'so named' bullet types. This is not a short term indeavor, of course. Goodness, there is so much research to be done. Many of us, myself included, do not have the knowledge to do that. Others are trained to do so. I am proud to be in their company. Is this NOT exciting.
Not being one of those who can/will do the archival searching does not mean that I/we are not willing to help out whenever possible. Some of us just ain't been around as much as some of y'all. But we're yet digging and collecting. We want to be vibrant members of this association.
Being good collectors we record what we find and where. This is important in many cases because it identifies what bullet types were used during the war (early, mid-war, late-war, etc.). Perhaps it would be a good idea to open a discussion listing as to what bullet types were used during the early, mid-war and late-war periods. Just a thought.
It's good to have you back,
Gary
tom stelma
Established Users
Record the find is probably the best way to do it. There is a guy in Virginia who unearthed/dug some monster pointed nose Enfield type bullets of a very large caliber. 1-3/16 diameter X 2.00 plus in length. He is sending me some pictures to put in an article on Rapid Fire Guns of the Civil War. I call these bullets which "might be" for one of the particular weapons due to their size.
Something like these bullets need a name but the pointed type Enfield is the best I can come up with. Any suggestions.
Tom
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: tjstelmajr on 2002-03-07 19:28 ]</font>
Something like these bullets need a name but the pointed type Enfield is the best I can come up with. Any suggestions.
Tom
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: tjstelmajr on 2002-03-07 19:28 ]</font>
tom stelma
Established Users
I will do it along with some more pointed nose Enfield type bullets coming out of the Trans-Mississippi area.
Tom
Tom