Cannon Lathe

[Selma Hunter]

The attached photo is of a "cannon" lathe actually used in Selma during the late unpleasantries. It is currently sited at the entrance to the Old Depot Museum in Selma not far from where it would have once been used to turn Confederate instruments of war. How large a cannon this might have been used on is subject to some discussion, however this lathe would have been just about right for turning fittings and accessories used on carriages, gun mounts, shells, bolts, sabots or anything else sizable that needed turning. A lathe this size could have been used for work on field rifles and other smaller pieces of ordinance.

Some of the records I have seen indicate the actual horsepower of the engines at the foundry shops and the length (in feet) of the shaft system delivering that power to the shop floor (not much actually by todays standards). One other lathe of this type is on display on campus at Auburn University (near Sanford Hall). The large item in the foreground is an anchor for those of you who might think it is an Alabama bream hook.

While Selma was a bit slow getting up to speed as an Army Arsenal and Naval foundry (compared to others) it was a substantial manufacturing center by late 1863. Selma and Corinth, MS were two of the key transportation centers in the South during the war.

 

[mtnman]

Selma Hunter
Thanks for the interesting picture. I am a retired Toolmaker and have worked on some old equipment in my day, (Some Pre WWII) but have never seen anything quite this old or unique. From looking at the picture I'll bet they could have easily turned 3 inch rifles, maybe even a Parrot gun if the bed was long enough. The Lathes "Swing" height looks like it might even accommodate a Small bore Mortar if one wanted to try. I wonder if they had any Chucks for this thing besides the face plate that is on it. I am almost certain that they would have one somewhere. You would need a Crane to change it back and forth for sure. Thank you again for posting this. Very Unique and interesting.
mtnman

 

[Selma Hunter]

Lathe Info

Mtnman -

Yes, 3" ord. rifles, howitzers, Napoleons, etc were probably within the capability of these lathes. The larger naval, siege, and seacoast defense tubes were well beyond this one I think. I was interested to see images of the smaller tubes having trunnions turned where the tubes were fixed to "plates" that were essentially configured like large wagon wheels with the trunnions centered on the hub as the other side was turned. The turning of the bands on the larger Brooke guns would have required a much larger machine, ergo, where did they go? (I'm doing a lot of research right now on correspondence and reports by both Union and Confederate sources that deal with logistics, destruction, and disposal information).

It is the reach of the table and bed length on this lathe that leave me wondering what other tooling was available - and even the tube weights for field guns leave no doubt that some overhead hoist was required. It would be particularly interesting to see a boring operation. It is my impression that there was no hole in the tube "blank" unless it was made of some sacrificial material - your thoughts? I have some information in re Jones efforts on this and will get back after more reading.

One thing I have run across in the past few days - in one ordered move of a section of cannon from Selma or Demopolis to Meridian to Tupelo (I think it was Tupelo) an exchange took place wherein a requirement for "20 horses or mules" were needed to move a section of 12 pounders (2 guns). Trains were the heavy transportation mainstay, followed by river boats, then over-the-road traffic by caisson/carriage.

Will follow up for you. Thanks for the viewing.

 

[mtnman]

Selma Hunter
I would like to hear any further info you might find on this machine. As far as the tube blanks for Cannons like the 3 inch ordinance guns. I have heard that the gun was actually hand forged with strips of red hot iron that were hammered around some sort of blank or tube to form the cannon. Then the canon was probably turned on centers the way the picture shows it. Then Chucked and bored. Maybe one more operation on centers to taper the gun to be concentric with the Bore and finish it. It could make a very accurate field gun if the Lathe has a lead screw on it so that you could actually do the rifling in the bore as well. Makes one wonder what they used to make the heavier Coastal type Artillery and Naval Cannons and Carriages. I might think that the Face plate could be an attachment on this one and a Chuck could be mounted right on the Spindle when it was removed. If you ever find a Blueprint of the machine and wanted to post it I would love to see it. This thing had to be belt driven and geared to develop RPM or Torque as needed. Very interesting. I will never complain again about the old machinery that I had to use for sure. The ones I used at least had electricity! LOL It must have been something to watch them making weapons with this thing.

Mtnman

 

[Selma Hunter]

Ordinance Rifles

Mtnman -

You are correct in that the CSA 3" ordinance rifles were made of lapped strips of iron, THEN turned outside on a lathe. I have just been back to put my notes in some sort of order and will try to find the descriptions I mentioned earlier.

 

[Selma Hunter]

More Selma Foundry Information

Mtman -

After your posting I went back into my files and found some more info that might be of interest. The first attempt to establish a foundry/arsenal in Selma seems to be in the form of a letter from several Selma businessmen to the designated representatives of the new government on or about 22 Feb 1861. The first TEST Brooke-style cannon was cast in July '63 & was subsequently destroyed in proofing. The second TEST Brooke unit (a 6 lb'er) was completed in November '63. Eventually it took the foundry 120 days (4 mos) to complete a full-sized Brooke cannon. As soon as the CSA bought the private works of the civilian owner (retained in the deal) an intense "modernization" began. One of C. Jones first acts was to procure 30,000 lb hoisting chains and to build towers and furnaces sufficiently sized to produce large cannon. The Army arsenal comprised 24 buildings and employed about 3,000. The Naval operation comprised over 50 acres, 100 buildings, and 3,000 men. Eventually the foundry had over 100 lathes of various sizes operating on-site. The main shop engine was an 80 hp steam unit and it drove 140' of shafting in the main works. In addition, there is an entire page of equipment, stores, supplies, ammunition, etc listed as destroyed in the days following the capture of the city. 1,130,000 rounds small arms ammo, about 70,000 rounds fixed (artillery) ammunition, almost 70 cannon and multiple privately owned but under contract machine shops. Many engines, machines, and much tooling were reported destroyed along with the various works.

Probably more than you wanted to hear.

 

[mtnman]

Selma Hunter
I had no idea that the operation was that large. Sounds like they were mostly engaged in the manufacture of Cannons and ordinance more so than say Edged weapons and small arms then. Is this facility being restored or
are there any attempts to make a museum for artifacts? I would hope so. This is very interesting to anyone who ever worked in a foundry or Machine shop to see how it was done 140 years ago. A lot has changed. I live in a town where there was a Civil War battle and a few skirmishes and some of the original sites are in danger of vanishing due to urban growth. There were never more than a few markers and signs here or there to begin with.
I hope that these foundry articles can be preserved for future generations to see. Thanks again for the info. I made tools for a living for a long time and I am always interested in how it was done years ago like this.
Mtnman

 

[Selma Hunter]

Selma Foundry & Arsenal Cont'd

Mtnman -

Your assumption is correct insofar as CSA government activity and small arms production is concerned. However, there were a number of local gunsmiths who filled orders directly. Also, the Leech and Rigdon firm moved to Selma from Columbus in late '62 until March or '63 when they relocated to Greensboro, GA and took up focus on pistol making. It seems that much of their efforts in Selma were directed to the manufacturing of a cutlass or short sword. Not much is said about other edged weapons although I am certain that the vast number of forging shops located there resulted in the making of some other edged weapons. Most of the Selma CSA activity in small arms was directed to the repair and rehabilitation of battlefield pick-ups gleaned from the fields by the CSA ordinance troops - to be re-issued as directed. That is another story worthy of telling by itself.

There was a huge effort in the making of all kinds of accoutrements and other necessities. Over 1.1 million rounds of small arms ammo were destroyed following the battle of April 2, 1865 (each time I read that I have a vision of being the first person to die from an affliction to be known as "Dehydration due to uncontrollable Pavlovian Drooling"). There was a shoe/boot factory at Cahaba (about 10 miles away. In Selma there was a nitre plant, a cotton gin, a button factory, a percussion cap facility, fuse making facilities and everything from lumber to coal in the way of raw materials. That list is a long one (one record reflects the efforts of the ladies of the town(s) collecting chamber pot contents to be used in the production of nitre). The Union troops captured (and kept) over 8,000 pounds of horseshoes. Selma was also the way point to the other foundries and manufacturing sites of the deep South for iron ore and coal from Elytown (Birmingham) because of the railroads.

The following photo shows some of the items currently in the Old Depot Museum which is one of three local museums. Unfortunately much of my sense of urgency in digging out this history is in fear that what is left of that history will be lost to the region if someone doesn't act soon. There is little interest on the part of local political groups to gather and preserve any of this material. The projectiles shown in this photo belong (with one or two exceptions) to a friend of over 40 years. He is considerably older than I am and will not donate his collection due to the political winds and concerns for the future of the collection. Most of his items came from the Mobile Bay area although much of the war material there in the way of cannon, projectiles, and small arms ammunition were made in Selma. FWIW, the ironclad gunboat Tennessee, of the Battle of Mobile Bay fame, was constructed in Selma and fitted out in Mobile with cannon made in Selma.

If I can answer any more questions please let me know. I can always dig out more history - there's tons of it.

BTW, as a machinist you might know someone interested in an Atlas/Craftsman 12" X 54" commercial grade lathe. I have one that is nearly perfect that I'm going to sell - super suited to gunsmithing. I also have an entire library of gunsmithing books and tools for sale as well. Sell or trade, whole or in part.

"You might wanna duck 'cause them ain't hornets"

 

[mtnman]

Selma Hunter.
Thanks for the info. You should consider maybe publishing a book about all of this history. Leech and Rigdon alone could constitute a book's worth of info.
I collect Swords, and the history of where and how they were made really helps in identifying them. There are a lot of Fake ones out there. Knowing the
history and even the Machining process can help the discriminating collector
in Identifying the real thing. This is a wealth of information that you have on the Selma foundry and its output. I hope that the area can overcome its political boundaries and preserve such a historic place. I am trying to get involved here in Thompsons Station TN as I hear rumors of people wanting to get together to preserve some of the Civil War sites here in town. I left word that I am interested. I hope that the folks in Selma rally to preserve some of their Civil War heritage too. Its too important to lose.
Question: Is the Alabama Gun works nearby there? Just wondering. I have often heard of them
mtnman

 

[Selma Hunter]

History Credit Due Others

Mtnman -

The credit for so much of the history I can share with others is due to a local historian (deceased) whose years of research and study produced several short publications. The real treasure in Selma is the knowledge and notes that allowed the publication of those documents. There is a very bright light to come from this work at some point, but that is not my story to tell - but maybe someday.... The family has been kind enough to share copies of the short publications for my research efforts.

I am not an expert on the Leech and Rigdon firm or their output. I am only quoting another record. And FWIW, the Official Records are pure gold for research. In the meantime I am contacting each and every person I know in Selma that had an interest in the town history or who owned artifacts. So far each and every one has cooperated with my efforts. It was my good fortune as a much younger man to be allowed close access to most of the many gunsmiths who operated in that vicinity from the 50's to the present. I used to have to stand on a box to watch the oldest work on his bench - and I now know I probably had to step across minnie bullets to get to and from his shop - built almost on top of a section of the old breastworks. The stories and tales of the old days brightened my younger days. Much additional information stems from data collected for economic purposes before the war, railroads, international trade records, etc. Some of the most interesting and useful is not published under any banner that would lead a researcher find it in regards to the matters of war, proper.

There was a home located at the corner of Lapsley and (now) Jeff Davis Avenue. It faced East, and was standing on the day of the battle. It had large white columns (sound familiar, Miss Scarlet?). The first one to the right of the front door had a large hole in it. Around 1960 something it was torn down to build a grocery store. I have located the cannon ball reportedly found inside that column (Bormann fused) during demolition and will post photos following my next road trip. The question is "how did it take a round from the Southeast? I have a theory but it will have to wait.

Well, that's enough for now. The site bosses may want to cut this one off - I'm probably driving them nuts with all this - and nary a word on bullets.

 

[mtnman]

Selma Hunter
True we have expended quite a few words no necessarily on bullets. Well keep up the great work there. I hope that one day all of this info could be
available in one source or location for all in the future to see.
Thanks again for the posts Truly interesting doesn't begin to describe it.

Mtnman

 

[Selma Hunter]

20 Horses or Mules

Guys -

Another newby oversight I guess - it took 20 horses or mules because of the math.

It took 6 horses or mules for the limber and the 1st cannon, and 4 horses or mules for the limber and the 1st caisson. Times two. Duh!

Sorry for the bad math the first time - it just never dawned on me that it would take so much to move a cannon. Each limber would accommodate two men, so if there were more guys than that then they had to ride horses (or mules) or perhaps ride on the traveling forge wagon, etc. Hmmmm - gives one cause to appreciate trucks. [/i]

 

[MosbyRanger]

Hmmm this horse thing makes me wonder! We know about how many men died in the CW but I wonder how many horses were lost during battle? Off the topic....but the thought hit me.

 

[Selma Hunter]

Horses and Mules

Mosby -

Way too many. A shot horse was likely put down. Not many horse hospitals in those days. Mules probably didn't get much better treatment. No doubt many a soldier cried over his lost animal.

Selma

 

[dmbspike]

Foundry Picture

Selma Hunter -

I am curious about the picture you posted. Is that suppose to be the actual Confederate Selma Foundry Building?

 

[Selma Hunter]

Selma Foundry Building

dmbspike -

I tried to answer your query several hours ago but either the server or my computer had indigestion at the time. Here we go again.

FWIW I am convinced that this was one of the original buildings (5 included I think) that were "...bought of C. J. McRae ..." by the CSA government in February 1863 and which sale was recorded at the Dallas County Courthouse 21 February 1863. The few remaining drawings leave a lot to be desired but the location of this one is consistent with the sketches of the McRae site. I have studied these quite a bit and recently visited the site again to gain a fresh perspective on the relative locations of many sites in the Selma area. From my fairly thorough review of those drawings and the site visits I'm convinced this was ONE of the buildings involved. It is the only one remaining - the rest were burned by Wilson's boys.

There were two foundry buildings shown in the Feb '63 sketches. Included with one were an "engine" room and what was or what certainly became the tower or lifting derrick for the casting pit attached to the SW corner. There were a rolling mill and two artesian wells located adjacent.

Remember, there were over 100 buildings eventually in the Naval Foundry complex, and some 3,000 employees. Jones did not have the casting technique he was seeking to perfect developed until approximately Nov '63, so all of the significant production of the large Brooke Cannon took place between, say, Jan '64 and March '65. All but a handful of the Foundry buildings were frame.

I hope this helps answer your question.

 

[Selma Hunter]

More Selma Lathe & Foundry Pics

Mtnman -

You asked about the lathe and the foundry - I had a chance to visit both last week. Here's a much better view of the business ends of the lathe.

I also managed some pretty good pics of the overhead drive systems in the foundry buildings - one CW vintage and two post war but very similar (formerly) steam driven drive systems. The drives had been converted to electrics but with surprisingly little impact on the drive system itself - belts all over the place!

 

[mtnman]

Canon Lathe

Selma Hunter
Now those are some really good pictures of the Lathe. Thank You. I see the pulleys now that were used to change the speeds and the geared shafts including the face plate. The overhead belt probably was on a corresponding pulley and my guess is that it probably was moved larger to smaller and Vice Vera on the opposite pulley to obtain the desired speeds. Much the same way that belt controlled machinery speed is still done today. Belts would have probably been the most efficient way to transmit power in a mass quantity. The gears might have had an issue with vibration but overall This is an awesome piece of historical machinery. I would love to get one like this going and turn a piece of metal just to see what she could do.
Awesome Thanks again
Mtnman

 

[tomh]

Steam conversion

Selma Hunter,

The Smithsonian did the same for a 19th century workshop, the only modernization is the replacement of the steam engine with an electric motor. I love the way they change speeds by knocking the belt onto a different pulley.

TomH

 

[mtnman]

Hey Tom
I just retired in November and the shop I worked in still had a milling machine that had a 2 position gear and 4 position pulleys to get 8 different speeds depending on what gear it was in. There are a lot of machines out there that still require knocking a belt up and down a pulley. Still, I find this machine really fascinating. I would love to fire it up and rip some metal on it just to see how it runs.
Claude